Other than a Mr. Lincoln we planted about twenty years ago, I've never grown roses until fairly recently.

The Fairy I planted just made a lovely shrub. I occasionally cut it back pretty drastically in the winter, and it fills out again in the spring and summer.

But over the past three years I've planted several antique roses, and I don't know how to care for them. I have three Marie Pavier roses, on Old Blush, and one Fortune's Double Yellow. (I hope I'm remembering that last name correctly.)

Anyway, they're all doing well -- but I don't know how to prune them, or if I should. They all send really tall canes up far above the shrub. After they bloom, I cut them back into the shrub so it will maintain its shape -- but they just send up more super-tall canes.

Am I supposed to be allowing these canes to keep growning?

If you are willing to train and bend the longer canes, you can leave them. Do you want to climb or wind around something nearby?

You have chosen some beautiful roses, Pooks. I have the Marie Pave and The Fairy and trim them when they come across their designated (in my mind) area tooooo far. I try to prune them very early spring but sometimes during mid-spring or early summer is when it gets done. Of course, that's the timing for North Texas. Where are you, Pooks? We're glad you joined us here on the forum. Hope you'll join in more often.

OR...do you want THEM to climb or wind (geez, that looks like the wrong spelling, uh?) around something nearby? Help me out regular forum participants!?!? I'm delirious this week.

I too have the Fairy, it has made a much larger plant than I imagined, but it is a really good value rose, covered in blossom from about now through to September.
Wind is one of those words Gail, that makes our language such a treat for foreigners. A windy day and a windy staircase, why could it not be a whinedy staircase?
If you can bend down some of the longer stems Pooks, you will encourage more flower buds to form.

Hi Pooks, we are always so glad to have a newcomer join us! Having a Fortune's Double tells me you are within our zone 8 or more, as it needs it hot! If you don't want to do any fancy training, the easiest way to live with these is to give them a good pruning in winter and let the long canes mound over into their natural form, with only light grooming during deadheading as Gail does. You may not want to hear this but, the best way to select a rose is by its growth habit, before choice of bloom for the plant to achieve the size and shape you want with the minimal amount of grooming. Here are the 'general' expected sizes of those you ask about. Your Fortune's Double's long canes can be left to cascade down on itself for a 5x5' mound or if you have the courage to train the thorny canes, they will grow on, up to 15' for arching or trellising. The Old Blush usually grows 5-6' high when left to its own and will trellis nicely. The Marie Pavier wants to be a 4x3 wide shrub. If you want the minimal care route, the roses or neighboring plants might need relocating (late fall). Since I tend to cram more plants in than I have space for naturalized growth habits, the classical training practices suit my needs, and as Terry said, bending the canes horizontally induces more bloom . But if that does not appeal to you, I'd just let those long canes mound on top of each other, because the new canes produce the next blooms. They look goofy at first, but will bend and drape with age.

Thanks for all the feedback!

I guess I'm measuring my antique roses against The Fairy. It simply filled out into a nice mound, and the mound got bigger every year. Sort of like a shrub, that needed only a bit of shaping. Because I read somewhere that you're supposed to cut roses back to about 18" to 24" in January, I sometimes do that, and then The Fairy just mounds out into a bigger mound each year.

But Marie Pavier and Old Blush have a low mound, but they send these long canes of blooms way up into the air. Very un-Fairylike. I keep cutting the canes way back, assuming that if I let those canes go I'll end up with a very leggy, "stringy" bush. But they so consistantly WANT to send up tall canes, I suppose I should give them their way and see what happens.

When I selected Marie Pavier, it looked like it would end up being the same size as The Fairy, and in fact, I have one beside it, so that I'll get a wee bit of a rose-hedge effect. And I put Old Blush where he'd have plenty of room to spread. My one mistake was buying Fortune's Double Yellow w/o noticing the size, and realizing that it appears to be far too large a bush for the place I've spotted it. So this fall, it's moving!

Thanks. This is a great forum!

Oh, in response to someone's question -- I'm in Garland, east of Dallas!

Thanks for saying so Pooks and thanks for asking such an interesting question :-)
I've had another thought - Since you were attempting a shrub-row of rose bushes, I was thinking you might be interested in the David Austin 'New English Roses'. It's a long story for this space, but you might enjoy surfing on the subject. They are becoming more available by retail in our area now, as well as mailorder co.s which you can locate on our rose Links pages. Also, on the Books page, 'Plant Ref' button, here are three titles that might interest you...

The Organic Rose Garden by Liz Druitt
Antique Roses for the South by William C. Welch
David Austin's English Roses: Glorious New Roses for American Gardens
Plant Ref Books page

Thanks for the David Austin reference. Friends in other parts of the country raved about them, but I didn't know if anybody local was selling them, growing them, etc.

I am organic and have been for several years. I listen to Howard Garrett when I can and do lots of shopping at Rohde's Nursery here in Garland. I occasionally make it to Redenta's in Dallas, as well.

I'm sure there's info elsewhere on the site, so could you tell me how to find out more about your swaps, especially the upcoming one in October?

Wish I had a pic of friend Eva's garden to show you Pooks. She's Queen of Roses in our neck of the woods Pooks, in fact, in Texas! I don't think there's a D. Austin she hasn't grown and her rose bushes grow tree-size compared to mine! She's attended my slide program, but the running joke is she's not allowed in my garden ;-), like Gail won't let me hers.
I shall e you about our swap and add you to my mailing list.

Pooks since you are in Garland, why don't you visit one of the local rose society meetings. We have the Dallas Area Historical Rose Soc, Dallas Rose Soc and Collin Co Rose Soc. You have received excellent suggestions and advise on your roses but the Fortune's Dbl. should be grown on some sort of support, low fence, arbor,etc. for the most beautiful effect. Ours is trained over our front door. I knew it would make a sizeable climber but had no idea how really thorny it is. I have to really keep after it so that the UPS man can get to the door with all my new rose orders! I grow both Marie Pavie and The Fairy (incidentally this is not an old or antique rose...a polyantha from the 1932. Marie Pavie is also a poly from 1888)as hedges. Because of the dense growth and really vicious thorns on The Fairy, we only prune it back hard about every 3 yrs. Even then we do not prune it to the 18 inches you mentioned. The pruning info you have is for modern or HyT roses...the antiques do not get cut back that hard. As Maggie said, it is better to know the ultimate size before you buy and place a rose but we are all guilty of buying a rose that gets larger than its given garden spot, especially in TX where everything seems to grow larger with even a modicum of care. On a final note, do you have the Old Blush bush form or the climber? Eva in Keller,TX

Thanks, Eva!

I think I never considered going to a rose society meeting, because I only had a few bushes. Yet now that you mention it, I think I'd enjoy going.

My Old Blush is supposed to be a bush, not a climber. But now that you mention it, I wonder if it's trying to climb. Maybe it was mismarked.

As for the Fortune's Double Yellow -- yes, I definitely need to move it. I'll have to figure out where to put it. How "wide" does it get? For example, if I put it against the house, how far would it extend into the yard?

The Rose Queen cometh! Thanks Eva. I meant to mention that I thought the 18" pruning was refering to hybrids etc - glad you caught it. Who me plant the wrong size rose for a certain spot? That's why I sculpt plants, ;-) well, that and I love shaping them anyway!
Friend Nicola in So of Eng has sent me marvelous story on rampant rambler and its sojourn up a tree. She's agreed to let me share it on the forum with an amazing pic! Stay tuned.

I have another rose question. When I moved here, there were several roses already established. I'm clueless as to names, etc. All I know is that the ones in the rose bed do really well, the ones around the house don't. I moved one from beside the house in the middle of last summer. Did the "covered cage around it" trick, and it survived the move and is blooming nicely now. There is another that needs to be moved, but I don't know if it is a climber, or if it just has long branches. I cut it back pretty short last fall, but now the canes are about 5' long and going every which a way. Its never bloomed, so I can't identify it by the flower. Suggestions will be welcome.

Re: cutting back to 18" --

I've done my Mr. Lincoln that way, but never The Fairy until last year. I'm not sure if I should admit this here (ahem) but last year, during the heat and drought, I hardly watered a thing. I was very distracted and not paying attention to the yard.

Of course, I lost a few things. The main thing that bothered me was a rather large rosemary. Oddly enough, another one survived without a hitch.

But The Fairy looked pretty awful, by the time I paid attention. So bad, that I cut it way back (remembering the 18" rule, so assuming I wouldn't hurt it too much).

It came out beautifully this spring, and seems almost as large as it was last year. So this is a very hardy plant!

Also, I realized it wasn't an antique. I bought it a few years before I got interested in antique roses. I've been surprised to see The Fairy mixed in with antique roses at some stores, though.

Last spring I planted several climbing
Don Juan roses. I have read that climbing roses should be pruned after the first spring bloom. I've also read that it should be done in February just like bush roses. I had beautiful roses from early spring until the cold weather in December. Can you clarify? Bob Beaton, Arlington, Tx

Hello Bob, The Don Juan is a good choice for Texas as it is known for tolerating hot temps. Its nature is of a short-ish climber, around 8 feet or so. I am wondering if you are wanting to grow them as bush-sized shrubs or are inquiring about grooming them as climbers?
Most authorities recommend not pruning climbers at all for the 1st two years, except for removing dead canes or trimming off any excess twiggy growth, the idea being that they need to establish a healthy balance of root to stem ratio before heavy pruning is applied for training. I follow this practice on young climbers in my garden with good results, choosing to tie the canes to a manageable arrangement, rather than remove those growing at inconvenient angles.

Rather than watch the calendar for optimum pruning time for mature rose bushes, I watch the canes - and begin grooming just as the first buds start to break - Reason being, that it is best to remove canes before the plant spends too much energy to make unnecessary new growths on limbs which will be removed anyway. This timing reserves the plants' resources for better growth of the remaining canes. In my garden, I first tackle those that break bud first (just-in-time-pruning;-), usually beginning in January, depending on our erratic weather.
Also, when pruning roses, be careful to make cuts just above a leaf node that is pointing in the direction of which way you want the cane grow.

Another thought Bob, your ref to sources instructing
"climbing roses should be pruned after the first spring bloom" ...
I suspect that was referring to those which bloom only once a year - as opposed to your DJ, which is a repeat blooming hybrid.
Rather than a hard pruning, you might chose to dead-head your DJ roses after the spring (and each) bloom flush, to save the plants strength for making future blooms.

Thanks Maggie. Your suggestion to not pruning your climbers at all for the 1st two years is interesting. I never heard that before, but it does make sense. Could you please explain the term (dead-head) that you used as opposed to hard pruning. Thanks, Bob

Deadheading simply means removing the faded or finished flowers. This practice stops the plant from spending its energy on seed production and triggers it to make more flowers sooner.

When removing dead flowers, or cutting fresh ones for bouquets, make the cut as low as the stem needs trimming to keep the bush's shape tidy. Also follow the standard pruning rule of cutting just above a leaf node that points away from the center of the bush, because that node will develop into the next cane or bloom head and we want to keep the new growth from heading back into the bush. Thick stems need be cut on a slant to avoid water from sitting on the top, which would cause rot (not a problem here in the summer!).

Deadheading is more difficult on climbing roses or tall bushes because of the height, so some gardeners chose not to take the trouble to deadhead at all. As always, plant grooming is a personal choice. But in gardening, as in all things, our returns are in direct relation to what we invest in effort, isn't it?!

It sounds like your Don Juans were smashing last year Bob. You must show us a pic of them this spring!

Thanks for all your help. Will follow your tips this year and look forward to a multitude of blooming roses.

I'm a newcomer and I need some help. I'm in Phase 1 of knowing your roses so I need some advice. 1) I kept the black spot away w/ Rose Pride up until about a week ago and now it's completely taking over my roses. I watered the leaves with the sprinkler system in our yard which might explain why the black spot came black so quickly. 2) I've been told that alternating between Epsom Salt and Rose Food (once a month)will produce better results. Is this accurate? ...one last question and I'll leave you guys alone 3) is deep root watering 1 in. once a week appropriate?

This is an amazing forum...thx for the help.

-terry

ok...one more....is it ok that I deadhead once a week. It seems that it helps my roses but I don't want to do any long-term damage.

Hi Terry, Great to hear you appreciate the forum, thank you.
When sulfur drenching alternated with baking soda baths can’t defeat a hopeless case of black spot, I remove ALL the plant’s leaves after the first bloom flush - although most sources say to remove just the marred leaves to help stop re-infection. After leafipping, I feed the soil generously with organic foods. New foliage returns amazingly fast and the plant is not damaged, but rather reprieved. I use composted manure for an annual heavy feeding. Foliage-spray feeding with liquids containing seaweed, fish, or compost tea is used between bloom flushes. If you are interested in more organic products and rose remedies, please try the search link at the bottom of Gail’s page here.

Your Epsom Salt question is fodder for high controversy. Some love it, others don’t believe it is good for the soil. I tried it once a long time ago and didn’t have great results. Yet, my roses have responded tremendously to annual mushroom compost (includes poultry manure) these last two years, even tho others claim it has too high a salt content. The salt within the high-humus mushroom compost appears to be beneficial to my alkaline clay soil, and lab reports state that it leaches out very quickly anyway. Repeated application of mushroom compost has not damaged any lands of the dozens users that I have interviewed. I also apply homemade compost 2 or 3 times a year.

I don’t know which roses you are growing or what your location is, but the 1 inch of water is a pretty good standard as long as you are not in a desert, and as long as the beds drain well. Declining growth rate and small blooms would indicate a need for more water and/or nutrition.
No worries about your weekly deadheading ,,, On repeat-blooming bush roses, regular deadheading is the standard practice to instigate new growths and keep the blooms coming.

I put this Gertrude Jekyll inside the frame last spring. Can’t wait for it to cover the domed top.

(The pink blooms outside of the frame are poppies, but look like Gertie in this pic.)

Hi Terry...Welcome to to Maggie's world of facts and gorgeous flowers. She is amazing. I have had a few rose successes but many more failures I am afraid. All of which has left me with one hard learned lesson...buy the right roses! I killed myself trying to grow those hybrid teas until I finally gave it up. While they are pretty, the are entirely too much work. I was constantly praying or watering or fertilizing or something all to no avail. Then I found the glorious antique roses. I would encourage you to investigate the old roses. They are all so wonderful. So wonderful in fact that I can't even make my own choice for a new arbor. I think you will find them to be far less work with greater pleasure. Good luck.

I'm loving this Leann, , I think it was a typo for 'spraying', but oh, what an appropriate one ...
"I was constantly praying "

I love all the advice! I studied Horticulture in school, but it's been years. I have a Don Juan that has been in for 4 years, and has done next to nothing. As my husband planted it, who knows if he did it correctly. I am in N. CA so our climate is wonderful, and rose gets plenty of sunlight.. not sure what to do. I do remember how to prune.. somewhat.. but what time of year is best? I have a 2 & a 4 year old, and am just venturing back into the garden after years of being indoors caring for them!! YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY. Would appreciate any and all advice! Thanks.

Since the DJ is a climber, you only need to deadhead rather than prune, unless it has outgrown its bounds or is burdened with old wood. It would be fine to cut it back now if needed. The trimming would instigate new growths if you follow up with a good serving of nutritious foods and waterings.

But since it isn’t blooming, I’m wondering if you’ve ever given it food supplements? Bloom and growth rates are in direct relation to water and nutrition. I know you’ve been too busy feeding and watering those toddlers to find time to nurture the roses :-)

A healthy DJ repeat-blooms all season long around here. Since it is probably a grafted bush, chances are only the rootstock is producing above ground growth and the DJ part has expired – in which case it will only bloom in spring. It is not too late to give roses their last feeding for the year in warm climes - barely, so hurry. If it doesn’t respond to rose food with an autumn bloom, its probably rootstock that you might consider replacing with something more rewarding.