Hello Gail, this is my first time in Maggies Forum. I read and enjoy your and Maggies columns in the Telegram regularly. I am embarassed to say I'm having a problem with that rampantly reseeding rascal, that plant of days gone by, the 4 O'Clock. One pink one was given to me several years ago, my first experience with them. After 2 years they showed up everywhere in white and various shades of yellow and pink, and though they're leggy, they're fragrent, and I liked them amongst my bushier perennials that didn't bloom all summer. The problem is, this year I experienced a lot of die back among them. Are they susceptable to Root Nematodes?
I had a similar thing happen to Pidgeonberry, where a healthy looking, reseeding grouping after several years went bad. A dead one showed knobby roots, so I tried chopped up orange rind around several sickly survivors and managed to save one, which is now healthy again, so I think the orange rind trick really works.
SO--Can 4 O'Clocks get root nematodes, or are they plagued with some other affliction that causes whole stems to wither and die? Also, a lot of small plants stayed stunted. They were so pretty last year.

Hi Sandra,
Wonderful to hear from a ST reader - thank you!
I have always heard that growing marigolds in a root-nemi-invested site will get rid of them, but haven’t had the experience myself.

I went looking for a photo of a nematode-invested root system for you to compare yours with. The link to THIS page has just that and seems to also be a very comprehensive source of bad-nemi info. Even lists the 4o’clock as being “lightly infested” in a Florida case study.

I also have a monster 4O’clock plant in my garden – a bird must have dropped the seed from fence below, because I didn’t plant it. But I really do enjoy it.

If yours doesn’t have root nematodes, I was wondering if they are having a drainage problem? I lost a few limbs this spring in the monsoon season. They just went black, but the rest of the plant went forth to conquer several cubic feet of space. According to the above link, the nemis would be damaging your entire plant, rather just a few limbs. If nothing else seems affected and the plants continuing growing healthy, it may overcome its problem by next year. Hope this helps solve your mystery – isn’t this just the sort of thing that keep us fascinated, and plugging away in our gardens? :-)

ditto what Maggie says...and glad you joined us. Hope you'll come back and visit often.

The orange rinds or orange oil from the organic nursery closest to you is what I have heard works the best. I have not tried 4-clocks since living in Texas, although I do love them!

Thank you Maggie and Gail for the response to my 4 O'Clock/root nematode question. Maggie, thanks for the plant pathology link, I saved it and printed the nematode chart for future use. From that I'd say nematodes aren't my 4 O'Clock problem. I doubt overwatering is my problem,either-- I have mostly sandy soil and good drainage, and we (Grapevine) didn't get as much rain as other areas did this spring. But all information is good! Thanks.

Here's another mystery for you, if you're game. I've had a cluster of those salmon-red Hurricane (or Spider?) Lillys for about 5 years. First year they didn't bloom but I wasn't expecting them to. The next three years they bloomed profusely, always about the 2nd week of September, to my delight. I probably threw a little fertilizer on them those years. This past year I may not have fertilized them, not sure, but didn't think them to be heavy feeders, anyway. This year they did not bloom. Not a one. The leaf growth is coming up on schedule, but what the heck happened to the blooms?!! They are in a mostly shady but bright spot under post oaks. They do have to compete with Virginia Creeper, nutrient wise, but the Creeper leaves are gone by the time the Lilly leaves come up. The spot is watered once every 5 days during heat of summer, less when cooler. Do they need fertilizer to bloom? What do you think?

I’ve been thinking more about the 4 o’clock problem Sandra. The fact that the seedlings are afflicted with the prob too, makes me wonder if they have a virus. I’m afraid the usual recommendation for a plant virus is to eradicate all signs of the plant. Then do intensive microbe build up in the soil with lots of natural nutrition and try again. Volcanic-deposit soil amenders are potent soil fixers.
Gail, have you heard of any new virus defenses?

And oh that Lycoris radiata mystery! I have talked to a lot of gardeners over the years about that one. Just when we think we’ve figured it out,,, the bulbs prove us wrong again! I had noticed that they would fail to bloom if their previous winter foliage had been frozen in exceptionally cold years, but the last few Metroplex winters have been really mild.

David (in Arlington) and I were comparing Lycoris notes just the other day. Neither of ours did anything this year – well,,, I had one bloom. He saw some blooming in Hubbard (?) around Waco last month and I saw some blooming in East Texas and Arkansas last week. After all these years of trying to decipher it, my best guess is that they just need to rest every few years, like nut trees and such. We would love to hear from anyone else who has been pondering this mystery and / or has heard of any scientific reports on the subject.

Well--you have let me know that Lycoris are a bit fickle, so I won't feel that I did something wrong (my usual assumption). More information. Gosh, this is great! I'm so glad I found your web site! I hope I don't become a pest.

Questions d'jour:

Am I correct that they (Lycoris) don't need much fertilizing? If so, what and when do you think is best?

My 4 O'Clocks actually look a little better, I guess the cooler weather, although I thought they liked heat(?) In fact some healthy looking babies are appearing, just in time to probably get frozen. You suggested volcanic soil amenders, plural--do you mean both lava and green sand? I do use lavasand, but what can you tell me about green sand. I swear I heard from an organic guru somewhere that green sand either (a)had too fleeting an effect to be worth messing with, or(b)actually could have a detrimental effect. I can't remember exactly---anyway, I haven't used it much because of that.

Did you know that Lantana and Morning Glory can get thrips? The lantana, a smallish, creme colored blooming variety had not bloomed well for me last year. I noticed the buds were browning out, so finally looked at one with a disecting microscope that I have, and it had thrips. So this year I treated them premptively, and they bloomed heavily all summer! The Morning Glory's leaves suddenly (~early Sept.) started curling and browning out. I looked under the scope, and again, thrips! I had thought they were strictly a flower bud problem, unless there is another pest that looks just like them. They decimated the morning glory.

But here is a pest question. On the morning glory, and on my lime green decorative sweet potato plant, something riddled the leaves with numerous small holes. There is no deformity or browning associated with it, and I could never find a culpret. Other people have experienced this too, no one seems to know what it is. Any ideas?

You are right about Lycoris not needing heavy doses of fertilizer because they survive for decades in deserted sites without any human tending, which is how they evolved as Texas heirloom favorites. It certainly would not harm them to supplement their diet, though – esp with organic materials. You could use any of the following – bloodmeal, homemade compost, manure compost, bone meal, fish and/or seaweed foods plus a humate product. The bulbs take in food reserves during the fall, winter and spring when their foliage is active, so now is a good time to serve um up some goodies.

Now she’s going, “humates?”,,, yes? ;-)
Humic is what I meant to write instead of volcanic. Oops.
Here’s a good humate page
They are usually available wherever organic supplies are sold.

Gail is our lava sand/ greensand champion. Maybe she will join us on this, but you can pull up her excerpts about them on this site by using the search button on Gail’s page.
Here is a quick jump to it

And what it pulls up from her pages on lava sand.
About your Lantana and Morning Glory critters, I would be willing to bet they are actually spider mites, because of the time of year. But either way, they are both ‘blood suckers’ aren’t they – the beasts. Type them into the search of Gail’s pages too – she is a goldmine of info.

The holes in your Margarita sweet potato and such are from a little black beetle that you would have a hard time spotting, but trust me – its him. Being lazy now, I have done the following copy/paste from my Star Tellie article on the orn sweet po vine:
“The tiny black flea beetle may chew numerous small round holes in leaves. Non-chemical preventive remedies require introducing beneficial nematodes or parasitic wasps and cleaning out garden debris over winter.”
You could try DE for instant gratification too, but its so late in the season, that preventive measures for next year’s garden might more worth the effort.

What part of the Metroplex are you in Sandra?

More Lycoris failures to report. Not far from Hubbard either, David. I got these at Maggie's fall plant swap a couple of years ago, and they have never bloomed. Last year, I blamed it on the grasshoppers. This year, the hoppers completely ignored the bed the lycoris are planted in. The leaves look quite healthy, but sadly,there were no blooms. However, at an abandoned house in Denton, I found a bed of lycoris which had obviously bloomed profusely. Figures, doesn't it?

Sandra, are you in limestone base soil like most of us in the Metroplex OR is there a chance you are in sandy soil area? If limestone, don't overdo the greensand but it does sound like you could use some more good organic amendments. Any of the ones that Maggie mentioned would be great.

Everyone talking about these chewing insects -- does anyone "innoculate" their plants that are susceptible to chewers? I sprinkle nolo bait everywhere around my plants in march and then again mid summer.

Also, I sprinkle all my plants that the chewers gravitate to with BTi AND DE. I don't know whether it's just me or not BUT I've had great luck with the BT and DE used in early spring on cannas and hostas and other chewables. The BT goes on the foliage and a make a ring around the plants with the DE. Occasionally I have to use them again on the plants in mid summer BUT usually just the one early spring sprinkling is enough (usually in May when the canna leaves are just starting to open fully.

A little off the topic, but how about my Asian Lilies that put up foilage but no blooms this year? They had great blooms in my WV garden the past 3 or 4 years.

Thanks Gail. I used some Nolo the last two years, but think this year's container was past its sell-by-date, so will be more careful next year. Please tell us how Nolo Bait works.

About your Asian Lilies MK, here are some possibilities to consider - has shade encroached upon them compared to the first few years? They like their heads in sun and feet in shade. The soil might need a phosphate supplement. Do they still get plenty of moisture with good drainage? When my trees grew more shade over some lily plantings their blooms dwindled. When I moved them to a sunnier site, they perked up again.

Nolo bait is eaten by the grasshoppers and it inhibits the "production potential" of the hoppers -- you don't want more details on that, do you?! :o)

Anyway, it's the reason that it needs to be put out early in the spring and then mid-season -- when they are "itching" to be producing.

Gosh, it feels like the birds and bees talk!

Then the DE and/or flour (yes, from your kitchen) sprinkled on the foliage will further keep them from chewing. Flour is kinda fun cause it gums up their mouth to where they can't open and chew. hee-hee.

To answer your question, I live in north Grapevine near the lake. This is Post Oak, Crosstimbers country. Most of the soil is sandy away from the house. (In the beds around the house I have to deal with what the builder drug in, which is more claylike.) So, just for fun, what difference in amendments do you normally recommend for my type vs your limestone type? I had my sandy soil tested ~5-7 years ago, and it was very high in phosphorous but low in nitrogen. I prob. don't put enough good stuff on, it gets expensive and I find I don't like messing with liquids and sprays. I have selectively used cornmeal and "Humore" products, esp. on an area of my St.Augustine lawn that was particularly problematic. It kept getting (in their respective seasons) brown spot, chinch bugs, and that condition where by the blades don't spot, but turn yellow and grow longer than the rest of the grass. (I see a lot of this "yellow blade" condition in my neighborhood--any idea what it is? I assume a fungus) I have no idea why that one area was so bad, but after two years of said treatment it finally looked good this year.It took quite a few bags of Humore humate to get it there.

What do you guys think is the best,cheapest humate product?

The cheapest source for humate would be a wholesale bulk purchase. But I don't have any leads on that for you. With enough research, you might be able to track down a co who would sell it to an individual if the quantity was large enough.

On the other hand, you may not need more - but rather, it might be a case of the plants not able to consume the soil's nutrients, due to lack of humus/microbial activity. In that case, a microbe/manure/nitrogen-rich compost would soon sort it out.

Mushroom compost would be a potent source and cheap when purchasing a truckload of several yards. I did a feature story on it last spring. Have heard from many who used it based on the story, and all have had terrific results (sand and clay gardeners). I generously used about 9 yards of it on my 1/2 acre garden. The soil had been in great need of a good meal since I stopped bringing stable compost sev yrs ago. A good manure compost supplement will last for sev years.

The mushroom compost I used includes poultry manure. The co is Advantage Compost 972-228-8514(recently changed name). A source for cow manure compost is D-C Organic, 817-645-6746.

Sandra, I totally agree with Maggie. I would be aerating in the spring and fall and throwing out the compost on top of all areas. After about 3 years of adding good compost, you should have EVERYthing licked. It may sound like a lot but in bulk, compost can be very inexpensive. Do you own an open bed pickup? I have filled up a pickup bed for between $30-40 at Clear Fork, Fort Worth. But there are bulk products available close to you too!

Also, just to double check -- are you using a combo of synthetic fertilizers and organic fertilizers. With that many problems, I would venture to guess...not to judge...that you aren't quite totally organic yet. I encourage you if you aren't to take the plunge this year.

Yes, yes - aeration - great advice. It really helped in the process of converting my clay lawn to an organic diet. I also found it was much wiser to hire a lawn co to do it, than to rent the monster machine and try do it by self or hubby. I had the lawn aerated every other year until the clay became microbe-rich enough to stay loose on its own. But even now, I poke the garden fork around heavy traffic areas that seem to be gasping for more oxygen.

hiring someone! now that's great advice! worth the price!

Hello Gail, I tried to answer you several nights ago and just as I was finishing the whole thing disappeared! I'll try again. You were mostly right about the fertilizer I'd used. I had used only organic for several years, maybe not enough in the flower beds because the main one looked tired. So, trying to save $ and my back I decided to try a little additional chemical (actually, Foreman's Transitional). It did help that flower bed (sandy soil). Problem was, I didn't stop there and also put it on the lawn, and then got chinch bugs. I wasn't keeping in mind that I use a mulching lawn mower, so it was too much nitrogen (I guess), which I later read that Chinch bugs like. Since then I have not used chemical on the lawn, and no more chinch bugs.

Another possibility for my lawn problems I wondered about was, that spring I had had a sprinkler system put in, and wondered if the crew could have brought it in on their boots and trenching equipment. Ever heard of that? Since that year both happened, I guess I'll never know.

I totally agree with you guys about aeration. I had Silver Creek Materials do that for several years and then they told me they'd done enough, that I shouldn't need it anymore! Can you believe that. I think the guy that did it complained because some of my yard is tricky for that big ole machine.

Clear Fork has several DIFFERENT companies that aerate. If you call, out there I'm sure they'll be glad to give you the names and phone numbers. Quite silly to say someone doesn't need it anymore cause it certainly never hurts.

I have never heard of chinch bugs coming in on boots...trenching equipment...hmmmmm...

I always worry about what comes into the yard from the lawn mower service I use, but really don't have any other choice since I am not able to mow it myself. But will say once again that I do everything in the garden myself except that which requires motorized 'chinery. Well, I did break down and use a chainsaw some this spring and prob will again for small jobs, but man when tree trimmers have to come in, I so worry about the oak disease being brought in on their blades. I'm surprised there isn't more stink raised about making them sterilize their equipment while there is a tree crisis going on. Altho, I think I've been hearing that the oak disease is on the decline around here lately.

And you guys guilt me into knowing that I really should fork out (bad pun) for aeration more often esp with this clay based mess. And then I'll probably be spraying their machinery with alcohol or bleach too ;-)

Sandra, did you do the tin can test this summer to confirm it was cinch bugs for sure?

I'm positive it was chinch bugs. I'm a biology person and am pretty good at identifying things, bugs, birds, bird songs, snakes, lizards-- what ever wanders into my yard gets inspected and (usually) identified. You don't have to do the can trick to see chinch bugs, just get down (with glasses if you're my age) and look closely at the grass during the heat of the day when they're active, around the edges of the damaged grass area, and they'll be running up and down the grass blades. Small, dark, beatley looking bugs with symetrical white markings.

Kerry Kellum writes fun and informative articles, don't you think? He seems so common sense, and the sort of professional who wouldn't treat a problem you don't really have. I always read his columns, along with yours, of course ;-) !!

I went across the street and inspected my neighbors yard. I found a few chinch bugs, no where near as many as I had, and their lawn showed no damage. We compared fertilization schedules, and thats when I decided I had over fertilized.

I'm glad you've heard that the oak wilt problem is declining--I have worried about that. I have post oaks and black jacks, but many neighbors are planting red oaks. And I just recently read--I think in Kerry Kellum's column--that black jacks are in the red oak family, which surprised me, and I guess that means that they would be susceptible.

#$%#&@*??!! I just clicked on the wrong button. In my discussion above, the 2nd paragraph is supposed to be the last paragraph. (Computers don't always do what you want them to do, but they always do what you tell them to do. And I rarely know how to make them undo!)

Sandra, We're gardeners on this forum and we know how to move around things! We have imagination and can read between the lines here. No problem.

About checking out bugs in the garden – for me too, it has come to this – I now have to keep a pair of reading glasses on the potting bench. How cruel this aging thing is, when wisdom grows (debatable, I know) - the body declines.

Yep Gail. Isn’t it the truth, how gardeners tend to let no plant sit still toooo long – just in case it likes it better and looks best somewhere else. Besides, how else would we, and the plants ever know if we didn’t try, right ;-)

And yes Sandra, we all tend to think faster than we write, resulting in amusing posts, but still manage to get the thoughts across in spite of our keyboard slips slides and slops. No grammar / spellying worries here ;-) But if you get a desperate need to have something amended, I can go into the page and re work sumthin when time allows. I once left out the word ‘have’, which made my post read that Terry and Nicola were giant slugs or something. :-0 Terry in his infinite word game wit had great fodder to work with on that one!

Yes, you are right about Kerry at Horton Tree Service, Sandra. I had him do the consultation and oversee the trimming here this year. Am well pleased with the work. Spoke with Kerry today about other things, but forgot to mention we were talking about him here. Will try to encourage him to join us next time I see him, although he always claims to be net and keyboard reticent.

I HAVE HAD 4O'CLOCKS FOR THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS AND THEY CONTINUE TO COME BACK IN EVERY COLOR. I HAVE GATHERED A GREAT AMOUNT OF SEEDS BUT NEED TO KNOW WHEN TO PLANT THEM. CAN YOU HELP

Are you in my area? They self-sow too easily in my Fort Worth garden, usually in April & onwards. A seed handbook reports that the Mirailis jalapa Four O'Clock germinates in 10 to 12 days at 75* to 80* F. Plant seed directly into ground after last frost date or sow four to six weeks earlier, in pots indoors, before setting into a well-draining bed.